Unlike modern diamonds, which are cut and polished using high-tech equipment, old mine cut diamonds were cut by hand, giving them a charming, warm look that many people love about antique diamonds. What is Old Mine Cut Diamond? One Mid Century GIA Old Mine Cut Diamond Solitaire Engagement Ring. Beyond these factors, antique cut diamonds like the old mine cut are valued the same way as most other diamonds, by assessing their color and clarity grades. Old European cut diamonds are the antique version of today's modern round brilliant cut diamond. A sleek bezel encircles this perfectly pillow stone with subtle side stone accents., A classic beauty centering a bright, scintillating, dream OEC in a staff favorite M color. Or start hunting antique houses and antique gem dealers online. In addition to that, the chances of finding any matching diamond jewellery are slim to none, given the fact that these days, old mine diamonds are incredibly rare.
Enter, the old mine cut diamond. Below, weve explained what the old mine diamond cut is. Buying a diamond is confusing.
You can get an inferior 0.40ct for only $300 or a gorgeous 2ct for $5,500. This finger-spanning beauty is a collection of bright white antique diamonds that glitter beaitfully in this low-profile dream. This tapered baguette style will always be a classic. Alternating Round and Emerald Cut Diamonds Nine Stone Wedding Ring. The main difference between Old Mine and Old European diamonds is their shape. For People Who Collect Memories, Not Things. These stones were cut from the end of the 19th century to about 1930, coming after the Old Mine cut. For many buyers, a diamond with a slightly imperfect cut might have more beauty and character than a perfectly cut stone..
How much is a carat yellow diamond worth? Diamond cutting and technology advanced quickly then to the modern round brilliant cut. Both diamond cuts also have a softer, less brilliant appearance than modern brilliant cut diamonds, giving them an elegant, classic appearance thats subtle and less likely to draw overt attention. Originally, the term old mine referred to diamonds sourced from mines in India or Brazil at the time, the old mines of the diamond industry. Emerald Cut Diamonds: Pros, Cons & How to Choose. If you need personalized help finding and buying the right diamond, engagement ring or other jewelry, feel free to contact us. For more help, you can also contact us. However, this is all a deliberate part of the diamonds design. Holding on to one might one day net you a hefty profit, as there are diamond collectors who would be all too happy to take it off your hands. Over time, it was used to refer to diamonds from any country that used this old-style cut., Old mine cut diamonds remained popular until fairly late in the 19th century, after which the old European cut became the most popular diamond shape.. What makes Old Mine Cut diamonds so great? Old mine cut diamonds have a beautiful appearance that dates back to an era when diamonds were cut and polished by hand., Like other antique diamonds, old mine cut diamonds have a softer look than modern diamonds, with large facets that produce unique fire. Here's a little video so you can see their magic for yourself! document.getElementById( "ak_js_2" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This field is for validation purposes and should be left unchanged. Please be aware that we may receive remuneration if you follow some of the links on this site and purchase products. What Does An Old Mine Cut Diamond Say About You?
In the process, weve come across several diamond engagement ring vendors, Heres what well cover in this article: How much does a 1 carat diamond ring cost?How large is a 1 carat diamond?Where should I buy a 1 carat, 2022 The Diamond Pro.+412-2501-7829Kernserstrasse 17 / Sarnen, Switzerland CH-6060, We are a team of diamond experts who will teach you to identify scams and avoid spending money on features you can't see.
If youve got one of these unique diamonds in the family, give it a second glance. A solitaire will always show your center stone off the most as it will be the star of the show. Featuring one GIA certified old mine cut diamond of 1.52 carats, accompanied with certificate #1226442356 stating Georgian Style Antique Old Mine Cut Diamond Engagement Ring Solitaire 3/4 Carat. Whether you keep them in their original settings or pair them with some modern metal, an antique diamond can keep your conscience a little clearer if thats important to you. This rendition centers a beautiful OEC diamond with the dream checkerboard faceting!. "Marc N, Yelp, 1920s Old European Cut Diamond Ring Platinum 7.60ct OP/SI1, 2.6 Carat Old Mine Cut Diamond Antique Ring 2.60ct U-V/SI2, Magnificent Old Mine Cut Diamond Elongated 5 Stone Ring 14K Yellow Gold 1.11ct I/VS2, Bezel Set Old European Cut Diamond Antique Ring 2.31ct K/I1 GIA, Stunning Art Deco Old European Cut Diamond Ring 2.19ct N/VS2 GIA, 3 Carat Old Mine Cut Diamond Birks Antique Engagement Ring 3.01ct H/VVS1 GIA, Transitional Cut Diamond Vintage Engagement Ring 1.34ct F/SI1 GIA, Transitional Cut Diamond Circa 1950's Ring 1.01ct F/VS2 GIA, 3 Carat Old European Cut Yellow Diamond Engagement Ring 3.12ct U-V/SI2 GIA, Lovely Vintage Filigree Diamond Ring 14K White Gold, Vintage Old Euro Diamond Engagement Ring 14K White Gold, 1930's Antique Diamond Engagement Ring 18K White Gold .80ct J/SI1, Circa 1950's Ribbon Design Diamond Ring 14K White Gold, Circa 1930's Three Stone Diamond Engagement Ring Platinum, Old Mine Cut Diamond Engagement Ring w/ Accents .42ct O-P/VS2, Old European Cut Diamond Antique Pendant/Brooch 18K Yellow Gold, 1930's Antique Buttercup Diamond Earrings 18K White Gold, Lovely Vintage Transitional Diamond Engagement Ring 14K Gold, Vintage Diamond Engagement Ring w/ Accents 14K White Gold, Old Mine Cut Diamond Solitaire Engagement Ring Yellow Gold .60ct L/SI2 GIA, Vintage Buttercup Diamond Engagement Ring 14K Yellow Gold .48ct E/I1, Buttercup Diamond Engagement Ring w/ Enamel Detailing .52ct Q-R/SI1 GIA, Late Victorian Buttercup Style Diamond Engagement Ring .55ct J/SI2 GIA, Circa 1900 Victorian Three Stone Diamond Engagement Ring 2.44ctw GIA, 1 Carat Old Mine Cut Diamond Solitaire Engagement Ring 1.01ct J/VS1 GIA, Bezel Set Diamond Engagement Ring Yellow Gold .92ct J/SI1 GIA, 3 Carat Victorian Diamond Engagement Ring w/ Accents 3.19ct I/VS1 GIA, Vintage 1 Carat Diamond Solitaire Engagement Ring Yellow Gold 1.0ct S-T/SI1 GIA, Vintage Diamond Engagement Ring w/ Accents 18K White Gold .23ct H/VS1, Old Diamond / New Mounting (8), Vintage / Retro 1940s-1980s (557), Art Deco / Art Nouveau 1895-1935 (466), Victorian / Edwardian 1837-1910 (142).
)Chelsea 5.34has a classic, elongated, more rectangular outline that is ever in demand. It was at this point that the country cemented its status as a major player in the diamond supply game.
Old European cut diamonds, like Old Mine cut diamonds, were also cut by hand. What Is The Origin And History Of Old Mine Cut Diamonds? Of course you can always have a solitaire setting with some glitz such as a setting like theAlyseandget the best of both worlds. This email go to Abe Mor our preferred partner for diamonds. If a diamond is certified with I color and VS1 clarity, the value is established regardless of its age. Please note, comments must be approved before they are published. Antique diamonds might be the way to go. One Antique Old Mine Cut Diamond 18 Karat Gold Solitaire Engagement Ring. Mary Kate Olsen Rocked this gorgeous Vintage Cartier ring, made in 1953. You will, however, find the occasional antique stone that will command higher collector-worthy pricing, so as always, just know what youre looking for and set your budget accordingly. Ring is made in 14 karat yellow gold. But EraGem put me at ease with their prompt communication and answered all my questions. Buying through links on our site may earn us commissions. As you research Old Mine cuts you're likely to see reference to the word "elongated" quite often. Like other old school diamond cuts, youre not going to find a bunch of old mines listed on every dot com diamond site, so finding oneand in particular, a good onecan be a challenge. Theres a sense of mystery surrounding them, which perhaps has to do with the intriguing colours and facets of the stones. Even two OMC or OEC with similar specs (carat, color, clarity) will look different**. The term old mine refers to the diamonds that were sourced in India or Brazil, so quite literally the old mines. Round diamond is certified Roman Malakov, 1.70 Carat Three Stone Princess Cut Diamond Engagement Ring. The stones are bright white and full of that antique charm we adore. Throughout the 18th century, India and Brazil were the two main sources of diamonds used in jewelry. As time went on and the demand for antique diamonds increased, so too has the price. Here at Frank Darling, we love recycled diamonds, and were more than happy to help you find one for your dream ring. Old mine cut diamonds share some features with certain modern cut diamonds. By the early-to-mid 20th century, as diamond measuring and cutting technology became more precise and advanced, both antique diamond cuts were largely phased out in favor of modern diamond shapes such as the round brilliant cut. Old Mine cut diamonds were cut by hand over 100 years ago, mainly during the 18th and 19th centuries. By the end of the 19th Century, the old European cut had taken over as the more popular cut of diamond. Selecting your old cut diamond should be based on your personal preferences of whether you like it or not. Below, weve offered our expert tips to help you successfully buy an old mine cut diamond while getting the best possible deal: Dont know where to start?
You must have JavaScript enabled in your browser to utilize the functionality of this website. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc, or its affiliates. A timeless and popular engagement ring style showcasing a 1.70 carat princess cut diamond flanked by two smaller princess cut diamonds weighing 0.80 carats total. Me. Were about to break it down.
First, both diamonds feature 58 facets, although theyre cut quite differently. Free prong tightening, repolishing, rhodium plating and cleaning every 6 months, One free resizing within 60 days of purchase, Best-in-class high quality imagery of all diamonds in stock. As such, theyre often larger than most diamonds used in modern engagement rings one of several factors that can affect their value., If a diamond is of historical or cultural significance, it may also command a premium compared to other antique and/or modern diamonds., Unlike modern diamonds, old mine cut diamonds were cut and polished long before precision diamond cutting equipment was available. (Click Here to save 25% off engagement ring settings), Kernserstrasse 17 / Sarnen, Switzerland CH-6060, Best Places to Buy Diamond Engagement Rings, Lab-Grown Diamond Prices & Value Analysis, How to Sell your Gold & Gold Jewelry for Cash. With a captivating yellow diamond taking center stage, this original, 100 year old Art Deco ring commands attention from across the room. These include: Solitaire: This cut allows light to enter the diamond from many angles, thus enhancing its sparkle, Three-stone: A three-stone setting tends to enhance the opulence of yesteryear, giving each stone a chance to shine. They are also known for having much more life and fire becausethe cutter's main goal was a beautiful stone and not certain specs which is what is seen in modern diamonds. YOU ARE SIGNED UP TO RECEIVE This center diamond has all the markings of a classic old mine cut; a soft square shape, eye-visible culet, and high table. Throughout the 18th Century, India and Brazil remained the worlds two main sources of diamonds that were used in jewellery. One free resizing within the first year of purchase, High quality images of about half of their diamonds, 100% credit towards future upgrades (must be at least double in value). Intricate engravings combined with dazzling Old European cut diamonds give this antique beauty plenty of sparkle, shine, and finger coverage. Cut by hand well over 100 years ago, weve seen the demand for these beauties skyrocket over the last decade and even more so in the past 2 years. We love this style of antique ring that most commonly hails from the UK and spans the finger beautifully. If you are after a larger look, ourMariellesetting incorporates lots of beautiful chunky antique stones for a big, finger-spanning look.. While old cut diamonds do tend to have poorer cut grades than modern ones, they can still hold a lot of value.
Showcasing nine round brilliant and emerald cut diamonds that alternating with each other, elegantly set in a scalloped pave setting made in platinum. This platinum ring is an estate piece. There is some overlap between the periods when both antique diamond cuts coexisted. OECs, being round, are often brighter and more sparkly while OMCs have the more unique shape, faceting, and overall look. We love the ribbon-like shoulders, a sweet addition to thi Mid-Century GIA Old Mine Cut Diamond Solitaire Engagement Ring. Then, in the 1860s, diamonds were discovered in South Africa, resulting in a massive boom in diamond mining throughout the African continent. Beyond their nice looks, old mine cut diamonds play an important role in the history of diamond jewelry.
Email Contact Form (425) 454-1802 12000 NE 8th St Suite 101 Bellevue, WA 98005, "It is a bit nerve wrecking to buy anything really expensive online, especially a wedding ring. What Are The Pros And Cons Of Old Mine Cut Diamonds? These diamonds were cut by hand to enhance each diamond's unique characteristics. No questions asked returns within 30 days of shipment. Although they share a few similarities, the old mine cut and modern round brilliant cut are very different diamond shapes with numerous differences: Unlike buying a modern diamond, shopping for an old mine cut diamond isnt quite as simple as youd think.
Enter, the old mine cut diamond. Below, weve explained what the old mine diamond cut is. Buying a diamond is confusing.
You can get an inferior 0.40ct for only $300 or a gorgeous 2ct for $5,500. This finger-spanning beauty is a collection of bright white antique diamonds that glitter beaitfully in this low-profile dream. This tapered baguette style will always be a classic. Alternating Round and Emerald Cut Diamonds Nine Stone Wedding Ring. The main difference between Old Mine and Old European diamonds is their shape. For People Who Collect Memories, Not Things. These stones were cut from the end of the 19th century to about 1930, coming after the Old Mine cut. For many buyers, a diamond with a slightly imperfect cut might have more beauty and character than a perfectly cut stone..
How much is a carat yellow diamond worth? Diamond cutting and technology advanced quickly then to the modern round brilliant cut. Both diamond cuts also have a softer, less brilliant appearance than modern brilliant cut diamonds, giving them an elegant, classic appearance thats subtle and less likely to draw overt attention. Originally, the term old mine referred to diamonds sourced from mines in India or Brazil at the time, the old mines of the diamond industry. Emerald Cut Diamonds: Pros, Cons & How to Choose. If you need personalized help finding and buying the right diamond, engagement ring or other jewelry, feel free to contact us. For more help, you can also contact us. However, this is all a deliberate part of the diamonds design. Holding on to one might one day net you a hefty profit, as there are diamond collectors who would be all too happy to take it off your hands. Over time, it was used to refer to diamonds from any country that used this old-style cut., Old mine cut diamonds remained popular until fairly late in the 19th century, after which the old European cut became the most popular diamond shape.. What makes Old Mine Cut diamonds so great? Old mine cut diamonds have a beautiful appearance that dates back to an era when diamonds were cut and polished by hand., Like other antique diamonds, old mine cut diamonds have a softer look than modern diamonds, with large facets that produce unique fire. Here's a little video so you can see their magic for yourself! document.getElementById( "ak_js_2" ).setAttribute( "value", ( new Date() ).getTime() ); This field is for validation purposes and should be left unchanged. Please be aware that we may receive remuneration if you follow some of the links on this site and purchase products. What Does An Old Mine Cut Diamond Say About You?
In the process, weve come across several diamond engagement ring vendors, Heres what well cover in this article: How much does a 1 carat diamond ring cost?How large is a 1 carat diamond?Where should I buy a 1 carat, 2022 The Diamond Pro.+412-2501-7829Kernserstrasse 17 / Sarnen, Switzerland CH-6060, We are a team of diamond experts who will teach you to identify scams and avoid spending money on features you can't see.
If youve got one of these unique diamonds in the family, give it a second glance. A solitaire will always show your center stone off the most as it will be the star of the show. Featuring one GIA certified old mine cut diamond of 1.52 carats, accompanied with certificate #1226442356 stating Georgian Style Antique Old Mine Cut Diamond Engagement Ring Solitaire 3/4 Carat. Whether you keep them in their original settings or pair them with some modern metal, an antique diamond can keep your conscience a little clearer if thats important to you. This rendition centers a beautiful OEC diamond with the dream checkerboard faceting!. "Marc N, Yelp, 1920s Old European Cut Diamond Ring Platinum 7.60ct OP/SI1, 2.6 Carat Old Mine Cut Diamond Antique Ring 2.60ct U-V/SI2, Magnificent Old Mine Cut Diamond Elongated 5 Stone Ring 14K Yellow Gold 1.11ct I/VS2, Bezel Set Old European Cut Diamond Antique Ring 2.31ct K/I1 GIA, Stunning Art Deco Old European Cut Diamond Ring 2.19ct N/VS2 GIA, 3 Carat Old Mine Cut Diamond Birks Antique Engagement Ring 3.01ct H/VVS1 GIA, Transitional Cut Diamond Vintage Engagement Ring 1.34ct F/SI1 GIA, Transitional Cut Diamond Circa 1950's Ring 1.01ct F/VS2 GIA, 3 Carat Old European Cut Yellow Diamond Engagement Ring 3.12ct U-V/SI2 GIA, Lovely Vintage Filigree Diamond Ring 14K White Gold, Vintage Old Euro Diamond Engagement Ring 14K White Gold, 1930's Antique Diamond Engagement Ring 18K White Gold .80ct J/SI1, Circa 1950's Ribbon Design Diamond Ring 14K White Gold, Circa 1930's Three Stone Diamond Engagement Ring Platinum, Old Mine Cut Diamond Engagement Ring w/ Accents .42ct O-P/VS2, Old European Cut Diamond Antique Pendant/Brooch 18K Yellow Gold, 1930's Antique Buttercup Diamond Earrings 18K White Gold, Lovely Vintage Transitional Diamond Engagement Ring 14K Gold, Vintage Diamond Engagement Ring w/ Accents 14K White Gold, Old Mine Cut Diamond Solitaire Engagement Ring Yellow Gold .60ct L/SI2 GIA, Vintage Buttercup Diamond Engagement Ring 14K Yellow Gold .48ct E/I1, Buttercup Diamond Engagement Ring w/ Enamel Detailing .52ct Q-R/SI1 GIA, Late Victorian Buttercup Style Diamond Engagement Ring .55ct J/SI2 GIA, Circa 1900 Victorian Three Stone Diamond Engagement Ring 2.44ctw GIA, 1 Carat Old Mine Cut Diamond Solitaire Engagement Ring 1.01ct J/VS1 GIA, Bezel Set Diamond Engagement Ring Yellow Gold .92ct J/SI1 GIA, 3 Carat Victorian Diamond Engagement Ring w/ Accents 3.19ct I/VS1 GIA, Vintage 1 Carat Diamond Solitaire Engagement Ring Yellow Gold 1.0ct S-T/SI1 GIA, Vintage Diamond Engagement Ring w/ Accents 18K White Gold .23ct H/VS1, Old Diamond / New Mounting (8), Vintage / Retro 1940s-1980s (557), Art Deco / Art Nouveau 1895-1935 (466), Victorian / Edwardian 1837-1910 (142).
)Chelsea 5.34has a classic, elongated, more rectangular outline that is ever in demand. It was at this point that the country cemented its status as a major player in the diamond supply game.
Old European cut diamonds, like Old Mine cut diamonds, were also cut by hand. What Is The Origin And History Of Old Mine Cut Diamonds? Of course you can always have a solitaire setting with some glitz such as a setting like theAlyseandget the best of both worlds. This email go to Abe Mor our preferred partner for diamonds. If a diamond is certified with I color and VS1 clarity, the value is established regardless of its age. Please note, comments must be approved before they are published. Antique diamonds might be the way to go. One Antique Old Mine Cut Diamond 18 Karat Gold Solitaire Engagement Ring. Mary Kate Olsen Rocked this gorgeous Vintage Cartier ring, made in 1953. You will, however, find the occasional antique stone that will command higher collector-worthy pricing, so as always, just know what youre looking for and set your budget accordingly. Ring is made in 14 karat yellow gold. But EraGem put me at ease with their prompt communication and answered all my questions. Buying through links on our site may earn us commissions. As you research Old Mine cuts you're likely to see reference to the word "elongated" quite often. Like other old school diamond cuts, youre not going to find a bunch of old mines listed on every dot com diamond site, so finding oneand in particular, a good onecan be a challenge. Theres a sense of mystery surrounding them, which perhaps has to do with the intriguing colours and facets of the stones. Even two OMC or OEC with similar specs (carat, color, clarity) will look different**. The term old mine refers to the diamonds that were sourced in India or Brazil, so quite literally the old mines. Round diamond is certified Roman Malakov, 1.70 Carat Three Stone Princess Cut Diamond Engagement Ring. The stones are bright white and full of that antique charm we adore. Throughout the 18th century, India and Brazil were the two main sources of diamonds used in jewelry. As time went on and the demand for antique diamonds increased, so too has the price. Here at Frank Darling, we love recycled diamonds, and were more than happy to help you find one for your dream ring. Old mine cut diamonds share some features with certain modern cut diamonds. By the early-to-mid 20th century, as diamond measuring and cutting technology became more precise and advanced, both antique diamond cuts were largely phased out in favor of modern diamond shapes such as the round brilliant cut. Old Mine cut diamonds were cut by hand over 100 years ago, mainly during the 18th and 19th centuries. By the end of the 19th Century, the old European cut had taken over as the more popular cut of diamond. Selecting your old cut diamond should be based on your personal preferences of whether you like it or not. Below, weve offered our expert tips to help you successfully buy an old mine cut diamond while getting the best possible deal: Dont know where to start? You must have JavaScript enabled in your browser to utilize the functionality of this website. Amazon and the Amazon logo are trademarks of Amazon.com, Inc, or its affiliates. A timeless and popular engagement ring style showcasing a 1.70 carat princess cut diamond flanked by two smaller princess cut diamonds weighing 0.80 carats total. Me. Were about to break it down.
First, both diamonds feature 58 facets, although theyre cut quite differently. Free prong tightening, repolishing, rhodium plating and cleaning every 6 months, One free resizing within 60 days of purchase, Best-in-class high quality imagery of all diamonds in stock. As such, theyre often larger than most diamonds used in modern engagement rings one of several factors that can affect their value., If a diamond is of historical or cultural significance, it may also command a premium compared to other antique and/or modern diamonds., Unlike modern diamonds, old mine cut diamonds were cut and polished long before precision diamond cutting equipment was available. (Click Here to save 25% off engagement ring settings), Kernserstrasse 17 / Sarnen, Switzerland CH-6060, Best Places to Buy Diamond Engagement Rings, Lab-Grown Diamond Prices & Value Analysis, How to Sell your Gold & Gold Jewelry for Cash. With a captivating yellow diamond taking center stage, this original, 100 year old Art Deco ring commands attention from across the room. These include: Solitaire: This cut allows light to enter the diamond from many angles, thus enhancing its sparkle, Three-stone: A three-stone setting tends to enhance the opulence of yesteryear, giving each stone a chance to shine. They are also known for having much more life and fire becausethe cutter's main goal was a beautiful stone and not certain specs which is what is seen in modern diamonds. YOU ARE SIGNED UP TO RECEIVE This center diamond has all the markings of a classic old mine cut; a soft square shape, eye-visible culet, and high table. Throughout the 18th Century, India and Brazil remained the worlds two main sources of diamonds that were used in jewellery. One free resizing within the first year of purchase, High quality images of about half of their diamonds, 100% credit towards future upgrades (must be at least double in value). Intricate engravings combined with dazzling Old European cut diamonds give this antique beauty plenty of sparkle, shine, and finger coverage. Cut by hand well over 100 years ago, weve seen the demand for these beauties skyrocket over the last decade and even more so in the past 2 years. We love this style of antique ring that most commonly hails from the UK and spans the finger beautifully. If you are after a larger look, ourMariellesetting incorporates lots of beautiful chunky antique stones for a big, finger-spanning look.. While old cut diamonds do tend to have poorer cut grades than modern ones, they can still hold a lot of value.
Showcasing nine round brilliant and emerald cut diamonds that alternating with each other, elegantly set in a scalloped pave setting made in platinum. This platinum ring is an estate piece. There is some overlap between the periods when both antique diamond cuts coexisted. OECs, being round, are often brighter and more sparkly while OMCs have the more unique shape, faceting, and overall look. We love the ribbon-like shoulders, a sweet addition to thi Mid-Century GIA Old Mine Cut Diamond Solitaire Engagement Ring. Then, in the 1860s, diamonds were discovered in South Africa, resulting in a massive boom in diamond mining throughout the African continent. Beyond their nice looks, old mine cut diamonds play an important role in the history of diamond jewelry.
Email Contact Form (425) 454-1802 12000 NE 8th St Suite 101 Bellevue, WA 98005, "It is a bit nerve wrecking to buy anything really expensive online, especially a wedding ring. What Are The Pros And Cons Of Old Mine Cut Diamonds? These diamonds were cut by hand to enhance each diamond's unique characteristics. No questions asked returns within 30 days of shipment. Although they share a few similarities, the old mine cut and modern round brilliant cut are very different diamond shapes with numerous differences: Unlike buying a modern diamond, shopping for an old mine cut diamond isnt quite as simple as youd think.